Top 10 Things I Learned from the Under 30’s
Yesterday I sat for an hour and a half with the 15 or so members of our team who are under 30 years of age. The goal—to simply spend some time listening and learning.
This was predicated by a series on conversations (re: crazy arguments for the soul of the nonprofit sector) I have had with, or regarding, Dan Pallotta, a fellow author and blogger who frequently questions whether nonprofit should be able to attract (and pay) MBA’s (or their equivalent) at a level equal to the for-profit sector.
In a recent go-round, I was listing all the things I do, that he claimed a person would miss if they were not paid more than $85K, which coincidentally, is my salary. However, during the discourse, I was really intrigued by the number of young readers who chimed in, who were working for groups that paid them squat, didn’t give them a voice or were generally pimping their sweat and their souls in the name of charity done cheap. I may not agree with Dan’s take (literally), but man-oh-man, we BOTH hate seeing young talent being exploited.
Long story short….I wanted to make sure that, despite our best efforts, we were not doing that here.
Now, I was not that worried. As an organization, DCCK has strived hard, since day uno, to be cool, even, equal and open. More to the point, we have made sure that the salary split between highest and lowest isn’t a chasm, that ALL have solid benefits, and that ALL have a voice (including on our Board). Still….it’s smart business to check in to make sure everybody got the memo.
This list isn’t 100% DCCK specific, but here is what I learned. Take notes, fellow CEO’s, it is worth it.
- Just being asked what they think is HUGE. Never underestimate the value of turning to them and just asking…”Hey, Man…what do you think?”
- It is even more appreciated if you really listen.
- They are busting with new ideas—some are bold, some are fruit loops, but the need to have them truly reviewed is imperative. To be dismissed without a real read is insulting….particularly if framed in that “you don’t understand yet” condescending tone/look we must all remember we hated when we were there.
- No matter how little I made when I was 24 and having a ball slinging drinks, booking bands and eating rice and beans…it is just not the same in 2009. EVERYTHING is crazy expensive, so even if we are starting new employees at $30-36K on average, with 8K in bennies—which they know is solid take home—making ends meet in DC is still as hard as Dick Cheney’s heart ….even if you only drink PBR.
- Student loans are crushing this generation. Now personally…I’m a firm believer that MBA’s are a total rip-off, bullshit degree, but I’m not out there trying to make it—they are—and just about every fresh grad is cruising into job #1 with a debt load on their shoulders that’s the equivalent of a car loan…and if they buy a car…well, do the math. In short—rent and students loans alone, in any city, take a Jaws size bite out of even the most solid paycheck.
- Many see the road to advancement semi-blocked by Xers or Boomers, many of whom they respect, so they wonder about lateral movement. As an example…if our current job placement person loves her job, but sees how hard it is to get felons employed, would we be willing to let her explore full-time advocacy when (and if) she gets the itch to move beyond her current niche?
- Along those lines…even if she did not move, but she felt advocacy was an imperative, how would she get that idea, or ANY IDEA to the top of our list of considerations…no matter how tough the economy?
- Did I mention how much they really want to be asked what they think?
- They respect process up to the point that it stifles their ability to kick some ass. They understand the need to keep records and report up the chain, but they also chaff at the burden of bureaucracy. From a CEO perspective, this was an interesting doorway, as it pointed to folks that we’ve moved up into middle management who are stuck between our organization’s need for process/outcome measurements and the energy, idealism and impatience of our newest team members. This disconnect between lower, middle and upper management is where the greatest loss of productivity is taking place, and where we’ll focus immediate efforts of reform.
- As much as some may question the commitment this generation has to the “we want to serve” ethos it preaches…it really is there. They need a solid wage, but of equal value is a job where they really feel they have contributed. Never underestimate the power of this drive, but do not overestimate how long they will work if they are not included in the process of divining the shared path. Wage is important, but being heard is rock solid GOLD.
I learned a lot today. So did they.
Both sides really got a chance to explore our shared vision for the organization.
Will all their dreams come true at DCCK? I hope so, as I value each and every one of them for what they have brought to the table.
But some will, no doubt, move on…those are the rules of the road.
But here’s my SUPER, NUMBER O-N-E take away.
As bad as I thought we were, we weren’t.
Nobody is.
But if you stay open….you can get close. That’s why the smart ones, every once and a while, stop and ask…”Hey, Man…what do you think?” Then they can plan for the future with confidence and the full commitment of the team.
So…under 30 mob…what did I miss?
CEO’s….what does your organization do?
Hey Man…what do you think?
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June 2nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I think:
a) you shouldn’t ask if you’re not prepared to listen,
b) there are nuggets of truth to be found within all the tons of BS,
c) even PBRs are refreshing when they’re ICE-COLD,
d) doing better doesn’t always mean moving up the ladder,
e) you do what you said you’d do, and you give it your very best,
f) help your neighbor,
g) the metrics serve a purpose to show what we did with what we had,
and how we could do so much more if/when it is available.
h) that you, my friend, totally ROCK!
How about that pint (or two)?
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
This is fantastic. As an under-30, I agree with many of their sentiments, of course.
But the best part is that you took to the time to listen. Well done!
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I think you hit the nail on the head Robert. Thanks for posting this and the sentiments of a large portion of the nonprofit work force that sometimes doesn’t get listened to.
Communication and Openness are going to take us all a long way.
June 3rd, 2009 at 2:22 am
Just a quick note from an under 30 that’s just two years out of college. My student loans are not equal to a car payment. They are about 3 times as much as a car payment. I was quite literally pushed out of the nonprofit industry and into law school because I couldn’t afford to pay off those loans. I mean Ithaca College was worth every penny in terms of experience, but I don’t understand how anyone could be expected to be able to afford what they’ve asked me to pay monthly right out of school.
Any way, that was completely half-baked but that’s been sticking in my craw lately so I had to use run-on sentences to get it out. Hope all is well at DCCK. I’ll be hitting up DC in July, maybe we can grab a drink!
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:36 am
Thanks for the feedback…and the offers of libations.
You know…it was the loan payment thing that forced my brain open up a bit about the needs of the under 30’s. Having never gone to college, I never had that load, so it just wasn’t on my radar. Now that it is, I think we may have to re-think our starting wages. Mind you….we’re not going to get nuts, but it sounds like even a few grand more would really loosen the knot.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Well said! The bit about having new middle management “stuck between our organization’s need for process/outcome measurements and the energy, idealism and impatience of our newest team members” particularly hit home. Any ideas about what the “immediate reform efforts” are going to look like on that front?
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Thanks, SaraJ….Actually, I want to roll those “reform efforts” past the under 30’s first, out of respect and to get their thoughts….but stay tuned, as I’m more than happy to hang our laundered linen out for the nonprofit neighbors to see.
By the way…as we are equally invested in our older employees and elder interns, I’m also going to be having an “over 60″ meeting soon.
June 3rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm
With all due respect, its not just the under-30 crowd who has to deal with low pay and not getting a voice. I am a Gen-Xer and have been working in NFP for most of my career, currently at a “mature” organization. I have an advanced degree and 10+ years experience. Now I am trying to raise a family and finish paying college loans on a mid-level NFP salary (oh, and I started at $18K a year after grad school, so it has been a struggle to advance to a livable wage). And I have to struggle daily with upper management to be heard. So I get very frustrated when interns and new hires clamor to be heard. I just want to say – get in line.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Thanks for sharing this discussion Robert. We had a good round of comments over this issue last week at http://www.regenerationforum.blogspot.com/. While many of my under-30 colleagues agreed that young nonprofiteers should not make as much as those who work in the private sector (does anyone really need to make $300,000?), partly due to other benefits associated with our work and the fact that it allows us to pursue our passions, there was some disagreement over where to draw the salary line.
Student loans ARE a huge problem. Inadequate benefits and little chance of promotion are another. If the nonprofit sector wants to keep young workers, they must concentrate on building better paths to advancement, to raising entry-level salaries above $30K, and to providing outlets for creative thinking.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
You know…I’m wondering if part of our strategy might be to confront the student loan industry for the way they indenture grads!!
But part of our dialogue here at DCCK today is anticipating the need to develop earned income, or traditional grant income to support the needs of the under 30’s when they become married, child-rearing, home-owning, 30somethings.
This is to Janet’s point. I was equally interested in anticipating HOW to retain them when they hit their stride–not loose them when they are at their best!!!
If you are interested…then follow this blog for an update on what we do to stay one step beyond.
As Ma Egger used to say…”talk is cheap.”
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
[...] First, if you haven’t read it–take a moment and check out Robert Eggers new blog post Top 10 Things I Learned from the Under 30s–and don’t forget to read the comments, too. Great conversation happening over [...]
June 3rd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Robert, thanks for the candid posting. I’m 100% behind you in going after the college loan industry!
I’m fortunate to be at nonprofit that does offer liveable entry-level salaries given the wonderfully low-cost of living in Texas. I think you’re point about listening to younger staffers is a great one but equally important is informing them of decisions made at the top. As the foot-soldiers for an organization, we must know the messaging and strategies in order to properly carry them out. I find that what I don’t know is just as frustrating as what I’m not heard to be saying. When executive level staffers begin asking, listening and sharing whole-heartedly, organizations become stronger and our communities are best served. Here’s to hoping it comes soon!
June 4th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
From a (seriously) over-30: Bravo yet again, my wise friend. Excellent advice for all of us in the fortunate position of helping to run organizations.
June 4th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
I love being around the under 30’s. They have a lot to say and to officer, but I also agree with Janet who commented: “With all due respect, its not just the under-30 crowd who has to deal with low pay and not getting a voice…….And I have to struggle daily with upper management to be heard. “
June 4th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Glen…you may look like Scar, but in your chest beats the heart of Simba.
It’s not about age, Bro…it’s the tude that matters!!!
June 4th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Student loans are a large consideration, but not the only reason to increase starting salaries in the not-for-profit world. 2 years out of college, I came to New York looking to follow my nonprofit dreams with a BA from a top tier school and zero student loans, but the only salaries I was finding didn’t come close to covering the cost of living. In the end, I found a compromise between the nonprofit and for-profit worlds in a university job. Now I make just enough to make ends comfortably meet, with very little left over.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
I’ve heard rumor that there is possible student loan forgiveness for people who work for 10 years at qualified NPOs. Something similar to teachers who can have student loans forgiven for working in particular schools for a specific length of time. Wouldn’t that be awesome! I just hope they would make it retroactive because I’m 7 years in with a mountain of student loan debt.
June 4th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
What I think is the most important thing that came out of your conversation with the under 30s is your respect to share what you learned with others and the duty you feel to recognize talent.
You sum us up beautifully in the nutshell by saying “They respect process up to the point that it stifles their ability to kick some ass.” We are a new generation of doers who manipulate the system only to make it better.
June 5th, 2009 at 8:53 am
One of our over the top, under 30’s just pointed me in the direction of the amazing Jan Masaoka, at Blue Avacado, and a recent blog she did on wage/nonprofits—another interesting dialogue on this topic.
http://www.blueavocado.org/node/376
June 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
JMW – there is a Public Service student loan forgiveness program.
http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml
June 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Thanks Andrea…great info!!!
June 17th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Janet says “get in line,” which is simply inflammatory. Her point, that people of all ages deserve this type of respect, is valid, but the way it was made sums up (to me) the reasons that people have trouble getting along. We all need to get over certain attitudes, prejudices, and entitlements. Value a person for what they bring to the job and for diligence, output, compassion, etc. These tips are good, but I always caution people to simply take each individual as such. Just because I’m in my 20s, for example, doesn’t mean I don’t get why process and outputs are critical. In fact, I’m the person in my agency who convinces others why certain “random numbers” make a difference. (grants, anyone?)
Requesting and appropriately using input is surely the most important thing. After all, if you don’t value an employee’s input, why do you pay him/her?
June 23rd, 2009 at 10:06 am
You’re right, it was inflammatory and I apologize. It wasn’t even what I really meant, I was just…incensed. I have worked with entry-level professionals for a long time, and I have often seen a pattern. Frequently, he/she comes in with energy and enthusiasm, often brimming with the knowledge they learned in college or (heaven forbid) grad school. And then they want to create strategic plans and bring them straight up to the Managing Director. “I have ideas!” they say. Great, I respond. But first, you need to spend some time learning the mechanics of the job. Learn to write a grant. Learn to write a really good letter, or brochure (my particular bugaboo, since I end up having to correct a lot of simple mistakes). Learn to use the copy machine, and the postal machine and the typewriter (yes, we still use it from time to time). I am not here to do the grunt work for you. I too have a degree, and I have ideas, and I have wisdom that comes from experience. Don’t discount them because I am forty. We can learn from each other, but we both need to be willing to listen.
June 30th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
[...] on these sites would really add value if part of a larger conversation. I’m also reminded of one of my favorite posts by Robert Egger’s where he shared his epiphany that for people under 30, “Just being asked what they think is [...]
July 5th, 2009 at 10:15 am
That was a nice read.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:25 am
[...] to me, I’m finding it refreshing to see a growing number of authors now taking a step back to listen and learn from, rather than deriding our [...]
December 28th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
[...] media” is was when I penned this blog about what I learned when I had a meeting with the “under 20’s” at DCCK. The Chronicle of Philanthropy picked it up and it swept across the country faster than [...]
January 4th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Thanks for this. You are right on target. I’m 28, and I’ve worked in the nonprofit sector for four years. Everything you’ve said is correct.
But, since you asked… I do have something to add.
It’s been really frustrating to me to see entrenched upper management making more than twice as much as their gen-y lower management counterparts while knowing literally nothing about the internet. When they don’t ask the opinion of lower management, they are not only hurting morale and encouraging young people to leave, they are quite literally killing their organizations through expensive direct mailings, newspaper ads (yes, really!) and phone calls when email and twitter would do the job better and cheaper. I’m fortunate to be in an organization that listens, but I can’t tell you how many of my friends aren’t so lucky.